Pharmacy Inside Jobs: astropharmacy transcript

Siobhan: Hello and welcome to Pharmacy Inside Jobs, The PJ Pod series that aims to inspire you to take the next step in your career.

Whether you’re a seasoned pharmacy professional or you’re just starting out, we’re here to provide insights into the increasingly diverse roles that are opening up within the profession. 

Each episode, we’ll be joined by a guest to explore their career journey so far, with a focus on their current role, and all of the opportunities, challenges and rewards that it brings. We’ll also find out what skills are needed to succeed in the role and how others can follow in their footsteps. 

I’m your host Siobhan Chan and in this episode, we welcome Li Shean Toh to the pod. Li Shean is an astropharmacist who is currently based at Monash University in Australia and holds roles both at the UK Space Agency and European Space Agency. She carries out clinical consultations, research and teaching into medicines management and the way our bodies process medication in microgravity. She also develops policy, works in space tourism and has co-founded a company called Apotech in Extreme, which aims to find pharmaceutical solutions for space exploration.

In fact, so niche is her role, that when I spoke with Li Shean late last year, we began by grappling with how she actually refers to herself professionally.

Would you say that you’re an astropharmacy researcher, or is there another way you would describe that? 

Li Shean: I think I’m an astropharmacy researcher, but I also now do clinical work with the space tourists. So maybe I’m not sure, Astro, just I don’t know,

Siobhan: Astropharmacy researcher and clinical pharmacist, clinical space pharmacist? 

Li Shean: Yeah, why not? 

Siobhan: Maybe we can start, Li Shean, if you tell us about your career path to date.

Li Shean: So, I graduated as a pharmacist from the University of Strathclyde. After that, I worked as a leukaemia paediatrics pharmacist in a tertiary hospital, and then the on call was quite heavy on me. I was sick every month, so then I decided to move to general practice, like a Malaysian general practice pharmacist. So, it’s a little bit different from the UK, we don’t have dispensing separation and things like that, but I had a chance to develop more like rural services, because I was put in an area where there was an Aboriginal community. 

Siobhan: Am I right in thinking you grew up in Malaysia, Li Shean? 

Li Shean: Yes, I grew up in Malaysia. That kind of sparked an interest into remote and more interesting healthcare. I noticed there that there was because it’s more rural, so we didn’t have quite a lot of the facilities, and I found that little old men and little old ladies were getting fragility fractures, and it was something that could be prevented if you could screen for it with a bone mineral density machine, a DEXA machine. 

So, I decided to do a PhD because I was tired of sort of putting out fires on the frontline and I wanted to change the system. So, I was very idealistic. I did my PhD thinking I could change the world, like a lot of PhD holders. So did that research over there. Did it with University of Nottingham. Then I really wanted a job in the UK, but there wasn’t any vacancy. I tried so hard, then I got a job at the University of Tasmania as a lecturer in medicines management. 

I continued my work in osteoporosis. They’re still trying to change things. But three years later, Nottingham said that, ‘Oh, we have a position, and we knew that you were, like, super keen at that time, would you want to apply and try to come back?’ So, I did. I applied, and I came back and then I went to Nottingham. I thought I was going to do osteoporosis stuff, but someho I ended up moving into the space sector, which is where we developed astropharmacy. 

Siobhan: Wow. That feels like a really big jump when you say somehow, I ended up in the space sector. I feel like there must be a story there about why you’re interested or how you got into it.  

Li Shean: It was actually really curiosity driven. So, there was this big professor back then. His name is professor Phil Williams, and he had this grant to manufacture medicines in space. And, he publicised it and then I just contacted him to say, like, ‘hey, is there anything done for medicines management policy, clinical practice’. So, we had a meeting in his office. We then, from that chat onwards, we became space partners in crime. And, I think it’s seven years now, we kind of pioneered and established astropharmacy together, and hopefully now it’s spreading.

Siobhan: So it really wasn’t a field before you got into it, would you say?

Li Shean: He pitched it as more of manufacturing on demand, using the space hook to say that it’s remote, and it’s the most remote area and difficult area to manufacture medicines. And then I took it in a really wacky way. He was like, oh, you know, you have to be realistic, this is an extreme environment thing, space is quite niche. I think it’s largely because he was supportive, and my division, as well, was very supportive. I think for the longest time, I think they thought I was crazy and like a bit of a joke, but they still supported me, which is nice, and few years now later, it’s a thing now. So, I think they’re also quite proud of me. Laughs.

Siobhan: That’s great. So initially, a bit of a maverick, but now you’ve pioneered the start of a whole field. So that’s really impressive. Li Shean, you’ve been all over the world, and it sounded like you really wanted to work in the UK and come back to the UK. What is it that keeps drawing you back here?  

Li Shean: I think it’s the character.

Siobhan: So, the British character is what draws you back?

Li Shean: So, where I’m from is Malaysia, so we’re like a new country. Things are very… skyscrapers, modern. Same in Australia as well. So, it’s kind of a new country. You know, skyscrapers, there are not many castles. But when you go back to the UK, I think I feel inspired when I see all that history. And it’s just full of character that makes me want to come back. Even if you buy a house, if you buy like a 1980s house, have you seen — the toilet is carpeted. That’s one thing, but it’s carpeted red. I didn’t understand it until I moved back to Australia and I realised like, ‘Oh, damn, I missed that’. Laughs.

Siobhan: I’ve never heard of anyone missing the carpeted toilets in the UK, but to each their own, I guess. Is there anything about UK pharmacy that draws you back in particular, or is it just the carpeted toilets?

Li Shean: I will say that I consider them leading because, for example, they are prescribing now that the next batch of pharmacists that are graduating are prescribing, so it’s more open to explore. And I think that gives me a flexible platform to say, like, ‘I could do something different and it’ll be OK, and they could accept it’.

Siobhan: Maybe you could tell us a bit about what you’re working on right now, because you’re in Monash University, right?

Li Shean: It’s a research fellow job, so kind of like a fellowship. I still continue my research in medicines management, which is the overarching thing that I do with osteoporosis, as well as astropharmacy. In Monash, it’s largely about deprescribing, but they’ve given me the flexibility to explore the space sector to Australia and to try to merge my two worlds together, because Australia is kind of… they’re quite strong in satellites, but they haven’t explored life sciences so much. So, I’m looking for my allies and friends to work together in Australia.

Siobhan: I’m a bit ignorant. Is there a big space industry in Australia?

Li Shean: I think they’re growing, and they’re very interested, because this year they had the biggest space conference of the year in Sydney. So, I think there is growing interest. In Australia there’s a lot of deserts, so they become very good landing spots for satellites and rockets. I think they’re hoping to send their first Australian astronaut soon, so she’s in training. 

Siobhan: Amazing. Are you involved in supporting that work?

Li Shean: Not in Australia yet, but I will have a meeting with the Australian Space Agency to see if they would want some help.

Siobhan: It sounds like you’re the expert, and they probably will be interested in getting you on board.

Li Shean: I think space tourists are a bit more receptive because space agencies, they’re governmental, military, so commercial companies are a bit more receptive to pharmacists like me doing clinical stuff with them, which, in the past has happened.

Siobhan: What kind of clinical work do you do with the commercial space companies? 

Li Shean: So, medication review, so to see whether there would be changes in their dosing if they were to go out for, I don’t know, three days or two weeks or half an hour. So, they want to know that some people are also on a lot of complementary medicine. So, they get worried. So, I’ve seen people who were considering to go, as well as those who were going.

Siobhan: What kind of things do you have to factor in if somebody is going into space and you’ve got to do that medications review?

Li Shean: Their comorbidities, so what kind of health issues that they have, and what kind of medications their age, like a regular medicines review. So, you take a medication history, just like the same thing, but you put it in the space context.

Siobhan: Okay, is there anything specifically about space that adds an extra dimension to those reviews that you have to consider. Or would you say it’s really the same as it is on land, just maybe a bit more comprehensive?

Li Shean: I think the issue here is we are practicing pharmacy or medicine, mostly as though it’s in terrestrial healthcare, like regular terrestrial healthcare, but if you stay long enough in space, microgravity does stuff to your body, and there’s physiological changes which can affect how your medicines are processed. So, for example, your distribution of fluid changes when you go up to space. So, if you’ve seen astronauts, they have like, a bit of a round face, because the fluids from your body pull up to the top of your head and your chest. And that’s because on Earth, we have that gravity pull so it pulls down the fluid while your muscle pulls up the fluid, so it kind of evens out. But in space, you have microgravity. You don’t have that gravity pull anymore, but your muscles are still pulling your fluid up to your head and your chest. And that means that your volume of distribution is affected, and a lot of medications distribution, if you take them, are affected, depending on how long that you are there. So, we anticipate, as experts, that there might be some changes in certain medications that have a narrow therapeutic index. But at the moment, the research we need to create, we need to find out whether really there is a change, and if this change is clinically relevant to change the dose or whatever therapeutic guidelines that we are using now, so we don’t have that clear answer.

Siobhan: Well, okay, and I guess that will become more important as more people go into space and space tourism becomes more of an industry.

Li Shean: Yeah, so in the past, is the fit, trained astronaut. So, they’re supposed to be very fit. But with space tourists, you could have someone that’s going up with epilepsy, or you have someone that’s going up with Parkinson’s. And if you go there for a short time, it doesn’t matter, it’s kind of like a roller coaster. But if you’re going there for three days, then there might be some changes that might happen, and you don’t want it to be too late. You want to prevent that. So that’s the idea. So that’s why we look at, we review the medication. Perhaps, if this medicine is a bit risky, do we delay that? Or what can we do about it?

Siobhan: Just out of interest, what is the longest that space tourists would spend in space, do you know?

Li Shean: Two weeks, I think. 

Siobhan: Okay, that’s a really long time, because I guess I only hear about the kind of Katy Perry ones where people are only up for a really short amount of time, and it’s not proper space. But yeah, two weeks is a definitely long enough time to need to change your medication routine, I suppose.

Li Shean: Yeah, yeah. And interestingly, space physiology, so I see it as two phases. So, like, if you go for three days to four days, you get space motion sickness, you get decongestions, you get sleep disturbance, and you get some pains. But if you stay there more than four days, then you start to see muscle, bone weakness. You know the fluids and the heart, all those changes so that then medications become more relevant. To understand what happens.

Siobhan: That must be quite hard to study the effects of in the body. So how do you practically do that?

Li Shean: Well, there’s the astronauts in the International Space Station, so I can’t claim credit for this, but there are a lot of other researchers who have gotten their data. So, they plan those experiments. They’re typically hard to do because they are a small number of people, and a lot of health experiments need more than ten people. We also have to do things that are non-invasive. So, for example, pharmacokinetics, the best way to do that is to measure multiple times using venous blood draw. We can’t do that, which is one of the limitations why the field hasn’t really grown. So ideally, we want space flight participant data that have been in microgravity for a while, not a couple of minutes. Because it’s so difficult to access space, expensive, as well as the community can sometimes be a bit gatekeeping. There are a lot of people trying to do it in what we call space analog. So that can be a space analog mission where you go to like in Iceland, a lava tunnel, and then you simulate a space mission. So, you can do medical case studies there. You can also do bed rest studies, where you have people lay down at an angle, so like your head is lower than your feet, and that simulates the pooling of the distribution that we talk about. So, you can do analog studies, you can use animal studies, but they all don’t translate very well. So, we need more people to go into space to do that. So that’s the limitation of the healthcare research. There is much more in medical and physiology, but for pharmacy, it’s difficult because you have to administer a drug, and it’s not ethical if they don’t need it. 

Siobhan: Is microgravity one of the only things that makes space pharmacy different? Or are there other forces at work there?

Li Shean: So, there’s a lot. Microgravity is just, to me, the easiest thing to talk about. There is scary radiation. So, yeah, currently, astronauts are protected in the International Space Station, and we haven’t gone beyond a certain area where radiation is more, so people are a lot of people are working on radio protection, suits, materials, even pharmaceutics. It’s also higher in carbon dioxide. It’s noisy. Your circadian rhythm is disrupted because the sunrise and sunset timing is different. So, you have all that that could affect your health and your mood. 

Siobhan: Okay, so loads at play there. So, it does feel like it’s an area that pharmacists should definitely be involved in. So you pioneered the field. Do you know, if many other pharmacists are working in this field? Is it a growing sector for pharmacy?

Li Shean: I think again, there is a bunch of us, wacky people trying to advocate for it, and come from the European Space Agency’s support and a couple of medical doctors in France and all over the world who said that we need a pharmacy team. So initially we didn’t really exist. And then the European Space Agency said that let’s try to find a pharmacy team, because it was a good number of medics that thought that it was important. So, we then did a policy paper, the European Space Agency science space roadmap, where, for the first time, we launched pharmacy as a standalone topic. It’s called pharmacological countermeasures. And then, from then onwards, we had a little team. And then what we did from that paper, people got awareness and agreed that pharmacy actually inputs to all sorts of organs like all if you do a roadmap of the body, medication is the most commonly used countermeasure. So, it was quite… people were like ‘Oh, actually, you are right’, there is value in this’. So, we then subsequently got a funding to start a ESA topical team.

Siobhan: ESA, is that the European Space Agency? 

Li Shean: Yes, and we’ve expanded from there. So, we have new members join us. We have new PhD students who are pharmacists, and so I hope that it will continue to snowball that way, and my little team becomes a bigger team.

Siobhan: Yeah, you mentioned that when you first started out, you said you were a paediatrics leukaemia pharmacist. You’ve also worked in GP. So, what was your experience of working in those kinds of roles, and how has that helped you in the role that you’re in now?

Li Shean: So, I think the crux of the thing I do is pharmacy practice driven. So as a paediatric leukaemia pharmacist, I clerk cases like any other pharmacist, and I do the same now. So, I clerk my space tourist cases, so I follow that, and I think that was clinically very helpful. In terms of the GP-based pharmacists, I think it’s about the remote area. So, you had to think about how you’re going to store vaccines, so it floods, and then we lost our vaccine, and the roads are so small you couldn’t really carry the refrigerator on a motorcycle or a bicycle. So, the vaccines died in the flood. Those kinds of experiences, they feed into the space sector because it’s also remote. You can’t bring a fridge of vaccines. You have to select them, and if they go bad, you have to think about how you’re going to make the logistics of the resupply and things like that.

Siobhan: Okay, so still, loads of problem-solving and kind of dealing with adversity here and there. It sounds like you’ve worked with some communities that it might be quite hard to work with. You know, you talked about paediatric leukaemia patients and people in hard to reach areas, and I guess it feels really different now in the field that you’re in, where you’re working for, I guess a group of really privileged people who are in the top echelons of wealth who are able to afford space tourism. What does that feel like for you, that must be really different?

Li Shean: So, I think on the surface it looks like we’re only helping the small niche, rich people. But I think there’s quite a lot of misconception, and people will debate me with this, but if you think about it, GPS technologies come from space. And now we use it every day in a phone. I can’t live without it. So, there is definitely a way that these research spin out. So, MRI machine, magnetic resonance imaging that they use a lot in a hospital. So that came from technology of people trying to take photos of space. So, I think that if we limit ourselves to saying like, ‘Oh, we can only do research in terrestrial we’re going to miss the amazing innovations and blue sky, things that we could like nobody could imagine, how it can affect our daily lives. So, I think it’s important to keep this kind of research, and it’s definitely translatable to Earth. If you want a closer pharmacy example, my colleague’s work, Phil, who is trying to manufacture medicines on demand. So, if you could solve the hardest problem of manufacturing in Mars, which is his tagline, you can then manufacture medicines everywhere in the world. So, you can bring it to the bench, to the hospital bench, you can bring it to your house. That means that you save on transportation, you save on, I don’t know, wastage, so I think we need to think that way.

Siobhan: Okay, so the hope is that all the investment that’s gone into this space pharmacy will eventually be useful on Earth for kind of more vulnerable communities one day.

Li Shean: I mean, that’s how I hope anything that we discover will be helpful. So even with the kinetic stuff, sometimes, we don’t really know exactly how drugs work. We think that way. But then with more data, we realise, hmm, actually they work in these other parts as well. So, and then you can have a spin off new drug for some other disease that we thought we couldn’t cure. How amazing is that?

Siobhan: It also sounds like you’ve worked in so many different countries around the world, and also now, not even the world, right? Like you’re extending into space. You mentioned Tasmania, Malaysia, the UK. How important has that been to you and your career? Being able to travel like that?

Li Shean: I think it’s probably shaped the reason why I went to the space sector, because I lived in so many countries, I see Malaysia as my home, I see the UK as my home, I see Australia as my home. So, I feel like more of a global citizen. Sometimes pharmacy practice is so national because the practice context is so country specific, it’s hard to resonate with it when I’ve seen what happens in so many different places. So, I like the space angle, because everybody comes together as one Earth for kind of one health.

Siobhan: Oh, that’s great. Just out of curiosity, what about your pharmacy colleagues in astropharmacy. Do they tend to come from a range of different places as well? Have they also traveled loads?

Li Shean: They’re from all over the world.

Siobhan: Amazing. So, it truly is a very global community you’ve got going there. What skills do you think you have that are most important to succeeding in that sector?

Li Shean: I think to go through with my curiosity, even though people tell me that it might not happen. So, I mean, I can share some experiences. So when I first started doing this, even though I was part of the ESA team, I wanted to grow kinetics, pharmacokinetics, or pharmacy practice and policy, and have it as a standalone policy thing. I had a couple of people who told me, number one, you’re plucking problems out of the sky. Don’t be so academic. You know, there’s no problem now. Stop asking. Second hurtful comment that I still remember, you are thinking about a fairy tale. It will never happen. I mean, I cried, of course, I cried.

Siobhan: Oh, I would have too. What made you keep going then, after hearing those comments?

Li Shean: Well, I had a good bunch of scientists who believed in the cause that I believed in. I also had good mentors. And so, I think that really matters. You know, a group of people, when someone says your idea is dumb, and then someone else says that, no, I think it’s a good idea. So, let’s pursue this together. And if they don’t want us, it’s kind of their loss. I think we’re just at the start, and I don’t consider this in any way successful yet. I think we’re just starting out, and you’ll see whether we can maintain, I think would be the question.

Siobhan: At what point do you think you will feel like you’re successful, or this field is successful? Sorry, that might be too hard. 

Li Shean: I don’t know. There are some people who already say it’s successful, because I’m the life science and microgravity advisor for the UK space agency. Other people are ESA advisors and all those things. Some people already think, what more do you want? No, I don’t, I don’t have that answer, because answering that would mean I’m limiting it, right? So, I want my juniors to push it far beyond maybe a pharmacist in space or a pharmacy in Mars. You have to dream big, right? 

Siobhan: I mean, that’s a crazy measure for success, but if that’s what you think you need to keep pushing forward, then absolutely.

Li Shean: Probably not in my lifetime, but someone else can carry the baton over.

Siobhan: To me, it sounds like you’ve had quite a lot of success in your career. What achievements would you say that you’re the most proud of?

Li Shean: I think leading the ESA topical pharmacology countermeasure team, because I think that started it all.

Siobhan: Yeah, that sounds like it really changed the landscape for astropharmacy. So, it sounds like you think this sector is going to grow, and obviously you’ve got some more junior PhD students underneath you now, and you’re expecting to see more astropharmacists in future. Why do you think the field of astropharmacy is so important?

Li Shean: Well, if you think about it, the technology for the rockets they’ve been building it for more than 60 years. Now, people flew to space for 60 years. Rocket technology is exponentially getting better. So like SpaceX, they can even re-land their rocket. We want not only pharmacy, I would say it would be life science, to grow because — engineers are going to get mad at me — but what’s the point of having rockets going up if you can’t maintain humans in it? You know to maintain health or prevent health events, you typically use medications, and if you go further into that, so if you think about machines and robots, the human body is the most powerful biological machine, and if you learn about them, they adapt very well in all sorts of situations, and going to space requires us so much strange adaptation because of the microgravity. From a scientific point of view, isn’t that amazing, because we’ve never seen how the human body could adapt in space. So, from a scientific point of view, that’s mind blowing to me. And if you can understand that, and you see how medicines work, of course, you need astropharmacy to do that.

Siobhan: That’s incredible. What a great answer. I mean, it sounds like you’ve been really dogged throughout your whole career in terms of finding that strength when other people were trying to push you down and pioneering a whole field out of nothing. What advice would you give to somebody who wants to work in this field?

Li Shean: Well, I cannot take credit. I mean, I had so much support from senior people. If they didn’t support me now as well, I don’t think it would have worked. There are a lot of people who come to me to say that, ‘Oh, I’m so interested in space and astropharmacy’ and they’re looking for a very structured way to do this, why don’t you have a PhD position for me? Why isn’t there a course for me? I think this is something that you have to be innovative and build your way in, and we can build it together. So, I think it’s about letting go of the structure and building yourself into it, which is what we all have done. We sacrifice certain things on it, but yeah, so I think let go of structure, maybe.

Siobhan: When you say you have sacrificed things for it, what do you mean specifically?

Li Shean: Work–life balance doesn’t exist. I mean space is quite high risk, isn’t it? You don’t know if it will succeed, and you only have x amount of time to do this. So, I frequently wonder whether, if I had put more effort into my osteoporosis research, would that have been more successful? Maybe I would be a professor now, rather than going back to do a fellowship in Monash, because grants for academia they’re always about aging or about terrestrial health, but it’s kind of difficult to get funding for space. You have to jump through a lot more hurdles because people think it’s niche. It’s for the rich. So why would you use public money, which is a lot of what research is funded from, to do research in the space sector. So funding is more scarce, so in that way, it’s the road not taken. And I’m not sure whether that’s the like, if I didn’t do that, what would I be more successful? Yeah, I don’t know. It’s more fun now for sure.

Siobhan: I’m just wondering, what do you think the next steps for you are, what’s the next big dream?

Li Shean: So, we started a company, part of the ESA pharmacy team, started a company. It’s called Apotech in Extreme, and we hope that we will be the company that will then provide any space services, whether it’s manufacturing, clinical education and regulations, whatever. So, I hope that that can grow in terms of industry, and that the pharmacy field will finally be recognised and be on the table of space medicine boards, and be a topic that people talk about, because even in contemporary healthcare, sometimes the voice of the pharmacist is not heard. It would be great if the voice of the pharmacist could be heard in the space sector as well.

Siobhan: And any dreams of going up into space yourself? Is that a possibility for you?

Li Shean: I wouldn’t say no, but for a short while, maybe not too long. But I wouldn’t say no. If you want to send me, if somebody wants to send me there, maybe send a geologist up and then he picked up a lot of Moon dust, and they learn a lot. So, if you send pharmacists out, you might not know what I discover. 

Siobhan: Yeah, who knows what might happen? Yeah. So, Li Shean, and you’ve really forged your own path here. And I’m sure there are loads of pharmacists out there right now who have something they want to pursue and aren’t sure how to do it, and they’ll probably be really inspired by this conversation. Am I right in thinking that your advice to those pharmacists would be to follow their own nose and to ignore the haters out there?

Li Shean: I would think so. So, follow your curiosity, find your people, because there will always be someone that supports you and someone that doesn’t. And then, if you don’t succeed, grow. Don’t be too hard on yourself. Try again. Try to have some fun. And I think it’s a cyclical thing where you keep going in circles, growing, meeting people, trying it in a different angle, and I think eventually, hopefully something will happen. And if not, come and find us and we can cheer you on, on the weird and wacky path of non-existent pharmacist roles that we create together.

Siobhan: You need a maverick pharmacist support group? 

Li Shean: That could work.

Music

Siobhan: Well, there you have it. What a great conversation that turned out to be. And hopefully real food for thought about your next career move. In fact, before we ended the call, Li Shean told us about an interesting space pharmacy opportunity that’s coming up.

Li Shean: We are trying to collect the people interested in any pharmacy field to join us as we are going to start an Aerospace Pharmacy Association. We’re going to have meetings. And you can, if you’re willing to work hard and be innovative, to try to find ways to make this topic of interest grow, we’d be happy to hear from you. 

Siobhan: Great, we’ll put those details on the show notes. What kind of pharmacists are you hoping to hear from?

Li Shean: Any pharmacist, so the gaps that we highlighted with the European Space Agency, we’re interested in the kinetics of medicine. So, if you are interested in growing that, or if you’re interested in growing policy or formulations or manufacturing, or pharmacogenomics, I can go on forever, radiopharmacy. You don’t even have to be an expert. We can learn to be an expert together. So maybe we may not have the expertise, but we can figure it out. 

Outro

I hope this episode gave you an insight into what it’s like to carve out your own niche in the world of research. It sounds like it takes a lot of sacrifice and resilience, but there can be big payoffs if you follow your own interests. It just goes to show that not all pharmacy careers follow the same track. 

That’s all for this episode of Pharmacy Inside Jobs. Why don’t you have a listen to our back catalogue and keep an eye out for future episodes because we have a really diverse set of interesting pharmacy professionals that you’ll want to hear from. 

That’s all for this episode and thank you for joining me! See you next time. Bye for now.