The Royal College of Pharmacy: a new era — transcription

Corrinne Burns: It’s finally here: the Royal Pharmaceutical Society has, officially, become a royal college: the Royal College of Pharmacy. 

We’ve been talking about this for a long time. The proposals were mooted in September 2024 and then, following months of engagement activity, in March 2025 members took part in a special resolution vote where they had the opportunity to say ‘yay’ or ‘nay’ to the idea. As we know, 71% of members who voted did so in support of the move. 

I’m Corrinne Burns and today we are hearing from Paul Bennett, who is stepping down from his role as chief executive, and Karen Baxter, who is taking over the helm and becoming interim chief executive of the Royal College, as we make this transition.  

I had a lot of questions for them both, but first, this is a really big moment, so I asked Paul and Karen to imagine they could go back in time and tell their younger selves that they’d be here at this moment. How would their younger selves have reacted to that news from the future? 

Here’s the outgoing chief exec, Paul Bennett: 

Paul Bennett: I think I would have been surprised that I’ve been able to occupy a role where I hope I’ve made a difference, and it’s not me alone — it’s always with other people. I think that’s really important to recognise and acknowledge, is you don’t achieve things on your own — you achieve things with other people.

I think also recognising the importance of science. I’m proud that my first certificate of registration with the Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain has me as a pharmaceutical chemist. And the science that underpins practice is something that’s been really important to me right from the very beginning. I’m really, really, therefore, pleased to see that not only the RPS today, but the future royal college, will continue to advocate for the importance of science within our profession. It does underpin practice, and science and research will continue to feature really strongly for the future. It’s part of our new royal charter and that’s really very important. 

So yes, I would be surprised as the younger me. I’d be surprised at how grey I’ve become, over the years. That’s not necessarily associated with this role; it’s just a fact of life! But I would be, I think, really pleased to have had so much opportunity to work with so many great people over my career.  

Corrinne: And what about Karen? 

Karen Baxter: I think student Karen would be very surprised. I think she saw her career as being a hospital pharmacist. I think already at that stage I was quite interested in information provision in pharmacy, which has been my career to date, and I don’t think I really ever saw this being a route I’d take, until a conversation with Paul about three or four years ago, where he invited me to be his deputy chief exec, and we were looking forward to this programme of work. I think by then I was quite excited about the opportunity, but yeah, student Karen would never have seen this as part of her future.  

Corrinne: [Laughs] That’s exciting, though. It’s a great time to be here.  

Karen: Definitely and it seems to bring together so many of the skills I’ve developed over my career, ready in one place for this opportunity.  

[Music]

Corrinne: So, coming back to the present. As we all know, a special resolution vote was held in March 2025, asking members if the Society should move towards becoming a royal college. And, ahead of that vote, there was a huge amount of member engagement, including a series of ‘RPS Roadshow’ events, where the RPS went out all over the country sharing the proposal, gathering feedback and answering questions. Keen PJ Pod listeners will remember our episode on that.

In the end, the proposals were passed, with 71.1% of members who voted being in favour. So I asked both Paul and Karen if they were surprised by the results of the special resolution vote; or if, given all that engagement, they had an inkling of how it was going to go. 

Paul: I think I got a sense from that engagement and from the number of webinars that we held as well, in addition to those face-to-face roadshows, that people wanted this to happen, so I wasn’t surprised by the outcome. I thought we would, and was hopeful that we would, secure a positive endorsement from those who were eligible to vote for change to do just that. I was really pleased with the turnout. It was over 31%, I think, from memory. And while that might seem not to be a very high figure, this is all relative to numbers that generally participate in votes of this nature. And we had a number of conversations with other royal colleges before we got to the special resolution vote to understand what level of engagement they’d experienced when they’d gone through similar things. I was particularly pleased with how positive the vote for change was. So, we secured a very strong mandate from the special resolution vote to proceed and that helped create the momentum. It’s now 12 months ago since we held that special resolution vote. It’s been a hard 12 months, but that’s carried us through. And so yeah: delighted by it and it’s taken us to where we are now.  

Karen: I think we were very confident that there was a lot of positive feedback, but we were also aware it’s quite hard to reach everyone in the profession, and so there’s always that feeling of unknown and not knowing who was out there that we hadn’t reached. And also I suppose there’s a big piece about how we mobilise engagement and get a large number of people to vote. So in that, there were a lot of unknowns, but I think we felt very confident that we’d had quite a lot of positive feedback on the journey and through the roadshows, and there was definitely a sense of: “Yes, just get this done, and then what’s next?” So I think we felt relatively positive — but never say never. There was always that nervous moment when we were awaiting the results.  

Corrinne: Of course, despite that strong mandate, there were people who voted against the proposals. I asked Paul and Karen what their messages would be to those members. 

Paul: Yeah I think my plea would be to please work with us, work with the future royal college, to make it a success, on behalf of the members, on behalf of patients and the public that the royal college will work to support.

I think it’s in all of our interests — for this transition from a really proud Royal Pharmaceutical Society and everything that the Society has done, to the new beginning of a future Royal College of Pharmacy. It’s in all of our interests I think for this to be successful. I think, we’ve listened, we heard some of the reservations that people had, and I hope that those reservations will be addressed in the strategy of the future royal college and what we’re going be focusing on as a future royal college. It’s a plea really to get behind it with us and make this a success. 

Karen: Clearly we got from some that there were reservations and a lack of clarity of what we were going to do, so hopefully over the course of the last year we’ve really started to address that, as we’ve been out and about and communicated more. And I suppose further to that, I’d say: please don’t cease to engage with us. We understand that not everybody is going to be behind a change, but it’s important that we hear both positive and negative views because those negative views sometimes illustrate a point we might have overlooked, or more work that we need to do to address a wider population’s either lack of understanding or lack of agreement with the proposal.

I do think we recognise we can’t please all of the people all of the time, though. But as I said, it’s just really important that we hear all viewpoints and all opinions as we go through this change.  

[Music]

Corrinne: It’s been an incredibly busy couple of years and, of course, Karen and Paul would be the first to say they haven’t navigated this transition alone, so I wanted to ask about the wider Society/College team and how it’s been for them. 

Paul: This is a very significant moment for the profession. It’s a key milestone and an awful lot actually has to be put in place for this to be achieved for us to launch the Royal College of Pharmacy on 15 April 2026. And so, it’s been an intensive period. We’ve been working very hard behind the scenes, some of which — perhaps the majority of which — is not immediately visible to everybody. That’s about making sure that we will have in place for the very start, the board of trustees. So we’ve recruited the first inaugural chair to be the chair of the board of trustees. We’re in the process of recruiting the independent members of that board. The rest will be populated from those who come from the senate. And they will come from the senate as a consequence of the recent elections that have been taking place to the pharmacy advisory councils for Scotland, England and Wales. So they need to be put in place.

Setting up, of course, the subsidiary for Pharmaceutical Press — our publishing business — to make sure that that is appropriately structured; the right relationship exists between the subsidiary and the parent charity in the future. Of course, navigating all of what needed to be navigated to secure Privy Council support for the amendment to the charter. Securing, and we hope to soon have notification of, registration for the College with regard to the Charity Commission and OSCR, the equivalent regulatory body in Scotland.  

Making sure all of our financial systems are appropriately set up, our people are in the right places in terms of organisational design, that we’ve got the right resources focused on the right things. So yes, I could go on. There’s a lot.

It’s probably all very boring for everybody who’s not actually involved in undertaking the activity, and so it should be. To them, this should be seamless. It’s all about what the royal college actually delivers in the future that really matters. But we’ve certainly been working very hard to make sure it’s given the very best start it possibly can by setting everything up ready for 15 April.  

Corrinne: Karen also emphasised just how much work the various RPS teams had been doing to get ready for this moment. 

Karen: Absolutely, we’d never get anywhere without our teams. I think in my head, they split into three categories:

There’s the publishing team, which I leave behind, who continue the great work, getting really fantastic evidence-based information into the hands of pharmacists, hopefully to make their jobs easier. They continue their great work and the profits that they create will continue to come back to the College. So then I look at the team that have been delivering the constitutional governance change within the future College: I’m thinking in that our people team, our legal team, our finance team. Whilst this is a transitional change, for the RPS to a royal college, a lot of it is quite in-detail legal and financial work in the background. And so those teams have worked heroically. It’s often an overused word, but they really have worked heroically to get this change through, but also to make sure it’s been done in the most rigorous and effective way possible. They will continue to support both publishing colleagues and the future royal college. 

And, in thinking of the future royal college, I think those teams have continued to deliver whilst many of us have had a focus on this constitution and governance change, and I think this is now their time. So the work that they do is really there to celebrate, support, promote the profession, and as we turn more and more attention to that, the delivery of educational materials, I hope they get their moment in the spotlight for all of the really hard work that they do. And I really hope that some of the delivery that we are planning on rolling out over the course of this year really starts to help members in the profession, so we’ll start to see the impacts of all of that work that they do.  

[Music]

Corrinne: Following Privy Council approval for the royal college in March 2026, I wanted to hear some reflections from Paul on his time at the RPS up until this point. I asked what stood out most for him from his years at the helm. 

Paul: I think actually, there are quite a few things that really stand out. For me, probably most importantly, was getting the RPS into a really strong position as a viable and sustainable organisation, having actively pursued our mission and our vision at the same time as assuring financial stability to help us for the future.  

Other things that really stand out for me was how the organisation navigated the really challenging COVID period of time and made sure that we were doing absolutely everything that we could to provide the support for our members, the wider registrant pharmacist population, and while advocating for them with government, the police and the NHS.  

I think building a strong team of people in leadership roles and — particularly for me, personally — I think being an advocate for women in leadership. As I look around me now, we’ve got a fantastic group of women leaders in significant roles across the RPS and they each have really true potential to progress further. I hope they feel that the glass ceiling doesn’t exist at RPS. That’s been a personal area of focus for me, as CEO.  

The other thing would actually be around the growth of our publishing division — the quality of our publications. We’re behind so many world-renowned professional publications and we’ve taken great strides in opening up access to them for healthcare professionals, notably through MedicinesComplete. And we’ve done all of that while also investing in the future, as a digital enterprise. 

Corrinne: I also wanted to know if there was anything that Paul might liked to have done differently?

Paul: I think that there are probably a few things that I would have liked to have done differently and clearly first amongst those would be to have convinced more prospective members of the benefits of membership of the RPS.  

I hope they’ll see that in the work that the royal college will do and that membership is not just for those on the leading edge of practice, but it’s meaningful no matter what their career stage or area of practice. And that’s really why I’m so optimistic that collaborative input to the building of a new royal college will ensure the transformational change that I really hope we’ll start to see and feel.  

I think probably the most satisfying thing for me as chief executive of the RPS has been the opportunity to talk to, meet and see so many great people in areas of pharmacy practice that perhaps I wasn’t familiar with myself, coming in as a lifelong community pharmacist. But, just recognising the passion that people have for the profession and for doing great things for the patient and for the public. And I think that, for me, probably the abiding memory that I’ll carry with me is the true passion that people feel for pharmacy and it’s really, really infectious.  

Corrinne: Paul’s been chief exec since 2017; I asked him what he thought makes for a good chief exec and would he have any advice for Karen?  

Paul: I would never want to consider myself a guru on any of this, but I think from personal experience, there are some really important things I think generally applicable to leadership roles. I think the ability and the willingness to listen to others is really important. I think particularly listening to those who might have a different opinion to your own, I think that’s essential. I think not being afraid to do what you consider to be the right thing, even if it’s not necessarily what others might expect of you.  

Make sure you surround yourself with really great people at all possible levels in the organisation and support them as best you possibly can to be at their very best. I think that’s critical.  

I’m really a strong believer in being a supportive leader; one who is there to help and support others to be at their best. I personally don’t tolerate autocratic styles that others might have and I don’t like those sorts of behaviours. I don’t see those in the RPS at all, actually. I think that’s what makes it such an enjoyable place to work. From my experience, I think the very best outcomes are usually achieved through collaboration and cooperation. 

People talk a lot about leadership and leadership is really important. I think so too is good followship, so once a decision is taken, everybody getting behind that and working towards the agreed end goal. I think that’s really critical.  

[Music]

Corrinne: Another critically important thing about teamwork, in Paul’s view, is that there are no bad opinions.

Paul: I think there are just good and bad options. And it’s the job of a CEO to navigate between those, always being prepared to be the one who ultimately has to take the decisive decision or action. 

My one last piece of advice — Karen doesn’t need any of this: she will be excellent in her position as the interim chief exec of the royal college, I have no doubt of that — my one piece of advice, I think to any leader, is just be authentic. Authentic leadership, I think, is more important than most people realise it to be. 

Corrinne: One of the five commitments laid out for the royal college is to, quote “collaboratively shape the future of pharmacy”. So I wanted to talk about the UK Pharmacy Leadership Advisory Board — or as everybody calls it, ‘UKPPLAB’. It’s made up of representatives from eight pharmacy professional leadership bodies and specialist professional groups, along with independent expert members. That board recently set out its vision for shaping the Royal College of Pharmacy. I asked Paul how significant that was. 

Paul: I think it’s been very helpful for us to have the support of UKPPLAB — I’ll call it UKPPLAB, it’s easier. It’s been really helpful to have their support as the RPS has pursued its agenda for change. I think as most people will know, our president sits as a member of UKPPLAB. We formed really strong relationships with the specialist pharmacy groups and the independent experts who are also seated around that table.

We’ve been actively involved in all the discussions of the advisory board and its sub-committees. And we’ve contributed to the operating costs of the board, hosting meetings for them, for example. And together, I think we’ve done some good things and RPS is fully signed up to the vision and common purpose statement for the future of pharmacy professional leadership, which echoes the ethos and the approach that we’ve taken from day one when we announced our intention to form the royal college.  

Perhaps more recently, this has resulted in the publication of the three-stage collaborative and inclusive process to develop a new royal college, and we’ve embraced that too. And we’re, of course, party to the creation of the staged approach, prior to its publication.  

Corrinne: The board is chaired by Sir Hugh Taylor. I actually spoke to Sir Hugh not long ago about the board’s work and Paul made reference to that interview in our chat. 

Paul: So I think in Sir Hugh Taylor’s interview actually with yourself and The PJ in, I think it was January, he talked about UKPPLAB ‘doing itself out of a job’. I think that was the phrase. And I think it’s a true mark of Sir Hugh’s success as the chair of UKPPLAB, and indeed the success of the board, that it’s thinking about this now, as the royal college forms. 

So they’ve done some fantastic work. It’s really helped us progress. The way in which we’ve worked together, I think, bodes well for the future. I think as you’ll know, there’s been a liaison group as part of UKPPLAB’s work that was formed, which was to assist the liaison between the RPS as we journey to the royal college, in our discussions with the SPGs — the specialist pharmacy groups. And that’s been really a very, very positive experience. It has set the foundation, I think, for the work that must now continue, to hopefully build that fully integrated home for the future of pharmacy professional leadership that I believe is achievable.

Corrinne: It’s definitely been a busy couple of years for Paul — and for everyone involved in getting us to this stage. So I was curious about what Paul had planned now that he’s stepping down from his chief exec role. 

Paul: Ooh, that’s an interesting question, Corrinne. I think what I’m gonna do is give myself the opportunity to recharge my batteries a bit, actually, after what has been a pretty intensive 30 months or so leading up to the launch of the royal college. Not only the 30 months, but the last 9 years as well, that I think I’ve been in role. So first of all I’m going to do a bit of battery recharging. I’m then gonna re-evaluate what I want to do next, but I will stay very interested in what’s going on and continuing my membership, of course, of my professional leadership body, that’s really important for me. And so, take a bit of time, reevaluate and then maybe take something else on.  

Corrinne: Well, I can’t blame Paul for making serious plans to relax now; I’d be on a beach somewhere if it was me. But looking forward, what does it mean to Karen Baxter, personally, to be interim chief exec of the Royal College of Pharmacy, after being with the RPS for so many years? 

Karen: Yeah. I’m really grateful for you not mentioning the number of years, thanks Corrinne!

For me, it’s both exciting and challenging. I mean, I never thought I would be in a role like this. And I see it as being a real moment of opportunity, not just for the Royal College of Pharmacy, as it comes to life, but also the profession. 

There’s a huge amount of change going on in the profession. We all know about pharmacist prescribers and to sort of be in the hot seat, as it were, at that moment of change for both the organisation and the profession is really exciting — a real honour as a former pharmacist myself, but also a little scary. I don’t think I’d be human if I didn’t admit to some trepidation about the scale of the work that’s ahead of us.

Corrinne: Although the Society has always had patients in mind, as a royal college and a charity, there will be a greater emphasis on responsibility to the public good. I asked Karen how that would look in practice. 

Karen: I think this almost underplays the work that the RPS already does in this sphere. So we do have patients and the public at the heart of what we do already. I’m thinking about our work on medicine shortages, where obviously the impact of that is felt by the patients, and then the really good work Team Scotland has been doing recently on end-of-life care. Ultimately, of course, that’s about supporting patients through the profession. 

What changes when we are a charity? I think we need deeper and wider engagements with patients and the public, and UKPPLAB have kicked off some really great work with that. They’ve convened a group of patients and the public that are helping us work through how that might show up in the royal college. 

I think we’ve said quite a lot: April 15 isn’t the end of this story, it’s just the foundation stone. And so we’ll continue that engagement work over the course of the year. I think there’s also, as we report back as a charity, looking at the impacts of what we do. So perhaps some of the work that we’re already doing will be made more clear as we undertake our journey as a charity.  

Corrinne: And what about the impact on both college members and the wider pharmacy profession? 

Karen: I’m gonna go straight in on member fees because it’s one of the things that I hear most commonly in the feedback. This transition is not altering member fees. I’d really like to get that out there up front. 

But in terms of the transition that we’re undertaking, as we said on the roadshows, what we’re trying to do is get a louder, stronger voice for pharmacy. So really emphasise the impact of the work we do. There’s a real element of status with the royal college, and there’s a real element of understanding now, both in the media and by patients, of what a royal college represents. And so it gives both the members of the profession and the profession itself status; puts professionalism at the forefront of what we do, and hopefully ultimately will allow us to have a deeper impact on things that really matter to the profession.  

Corrinne: Amongst all this, business as usual continues for the profession. So, what’s the in-tray looking like post-transition: what priorities will the College have? Here’s Karen again.

Karen: Really, there’s a huge amount of dialogue about workforce wellbeing, and that’s already part of the work of the RPS. But we really need to have a keen eye on thinking about our role as a royal college in developing excellence and promoting the profession, and allowing it really to operate at the top of the scope of its licence.

I think that’s a key piece of work for us to do to understand how we can do that alongside the pressures that pharmacists on the frontline feel. To think that we should turn around to a really pressured workforce and say, ‘And now do this piece of education,’ is not a sustainable position. So I think we’ve got to continue with our advocacy work in that area; really promote the needs of the profession. 

We continue to advocate for protected learning time, but then also look at how the educational content that we deliver and the activities that we undertake to support the profession can be delivered in different ways — bite-size, easier accessibility — to really support them achieve that excellence alongside those pressures. 

Corrinne: Karen emphasised that the College will continue to be working with other bodies, too. 

Karen: It’s not a role for us alone. I think there is a lot of partnerships we need to capitalise on here, so working with others in the sector to look at the problem. We already partner with Pharmacist Support in this area of workforce wellbeing and APTUK.

If I’m allowed to go on on this front, we had a really interesting session at the last Assembly and that will really bring some of the engagement that we can have with the education sector to life and how we join forces and perhaps, lobby collectively to government to really get the case of pharmacists right in front of ministers and really enact the changes that we need to see to support both the education, training and development of the profession.  

Corrinne: Something else the College is working on is developing the new strategy. I wanted to know how that was going.

Karen: We’re doing it in a number of phases. So, obviously there’s huge expectation as we launch and we’ve been discussing with the sector our commitments.

Corrinne: Karen’s referring here to the five commitments that the Royal College of Pharmacy has set out for itself, which include greater recognition for pharmacy and putting patients at the forefront of its work. You can find the commitments on the website and we will also add a link in the show notes. 

Karen: Those commitments will underpin what we’re, I suppose, we’re sort of calling as a ‘shorthand transitional strategy’. So we have to balance what we’ve heard from the profession, and I’ll come back to that, alongside our transition into a charity where the trustee board are responsible for signing off the strategy. 

So, we are assembling our trustee board at the moment. The recent elections have given us four members of the trustee board alongside Joe Irvine, that we already had. So they’ll be responsible for taking that transitional strategy forward. 

But as we engaged last year, as we were looking at how we would go about building a strategy, what we heard loudly and strongly from the sector is a real desire for us to engage more, for us to have more dialogue. And I think it’s really important that we take the opportunity across the course of this year to do a lot more listening and a lot more engagement of the kind that we did when we were out on the roadshows, so that we can really connect with the profession and understand what their priorities are, and from that, begin to build our strategy. 

There’s obviously other work ongoing in the ecosystem that will inform our strategy as well. So UKPPLAB have made some strong statements about the direction for the future of the Royal College, and there’s a huge amount of work there to pick up and build on, working with the other specialist pharmacy groups and professional leadership bodies in the sector to see how we can collaborate, ultimately, to the benefit of the profession, so that we can help patients more through the work that we do.  

Corrinne: So what can we expect following the launch of the royal college on 15 April? 

Karen: This, whilst a really significant moment, turning us into the Royal College of Pharmacy and giving us that charitable status, is only the foundation stone. But I think it’s really the delivery work that we have to do over the year ahead, to really prove that this is gonna be a royal college that’s different. 

And then I think there will be some milestones along the way that we’ll be able to celebrate. We’ve got some exciting curricular launches and other deliverables that are coming across the course of the year. And so we’re looking on it as a milestone celebration to start with, but then much more work to do in celebrating that work as we begin to deliver.  

We will also be launching a new website on April 15th and there is a real richness to the information on our current website but boy is it hard to find, so hopefully as we launch that new website, we make that information about what we are doing easier to discover. Members will get a greater grip of what is going on and continue to share with their colleagues, alongside all the other communications that are ongoing.

Corrinne: Now, the big question — and I saved this one for last. How long will it take before we all remember to call it the Royal College of Pharmacy and stop saying ‘the RPS’? 

Karen: I don’t know if you’re a gambling type, but maybe we should bet on that. I’m almost prepared to give our new senate members bingo cards for how many times we say ‘board’ when we mean ‘council’, and how many times we get mixed up with ‘assembly’ and the ‘trustee board’, and the rest of it. I think we’ll be tripping ourselves up for a few weeks to come. But hopefully as we reach April 15th and start to live and breathe royal college, we’ll begin to see that far more consistently in our language. 

Corrinne: So, I think that everything Paul and Karen have said so far really shows just how much has gone into the lead up to this moment. An incredible amount of work, from the team at the RPS, now college, but also from the members who took the time to join the webinars, to attend the roadshows and to submit their votes. 

So, as we reach this moment, what would be both Karen and Paul’s message to people listening to this right now? 

Karen: I think there’s been a huge amount of expectation on what April the 15th will bring, and April the 15th will bring the right framework for us to do the work that we need to in the future. But everything won’t change at once. So I’d say please, continue to join with us on this journey. Please, continue to give your feedback and engage with us, because only by hearing from our members in the profession can we truly understand how we deliver to the best of our abilities. 

But also watch what we do and watch how we deliver and see the change in what we’re doing. I think there’s a huge cultural piece that we have to address, as we become a charity, and I think we’ve heard so strongly over the course of the last year how much people want to see us out and about and talking to them and hearing their concerns. 

So I’d say, judge us on our actions, not on exactly what happens on April the 15th.

Paul: The one thing I would say is it’s been a real privilege to be the chief executive of my professional leadership body.  

I am a proud pharmacist. What I’m gonna miss most, I think, is the camaraderie of working with colleagues across the whole of the RPS. Some of the mental stimulation that comes along with that, with dealing with the challenges that you naturally face when in this sort of role. And the stimulation I get from achieving something when we’re trying to drive organisational change and achieve strategic ambitions. 

I have been so impressed with just how talented the people are who work within the Royal Pharmaceutical Society, and just how impressed I’ve been by people who give freely of their time to support the work that we do. Whether that’s through those who become elected members and part of our governance structure; those who work and give freely of their time in the expert advisory groups, or they sit on our committees or our sub-committees. They do that because they passionately want to see pharmacy develop and grow as a profession. 

And I take away from all of my time here a really nice warm feeling inside about how positive the future is for pharmacy while great people like that are around.

[Music]

Corrinne: Well I think that’s a nice really way to finish. I think Paul has really summed up the sense of optimism that so many people feel around the launch of a Royal College of Pharmacy.

Although, as Karen has pointed out, there’s a lot to do now and I really got the sense from my discussion with her that the College sees this as a shared journey that ultimately belongs to the members. For The PJ’s part, we’ll be there reporting at every step of the way so do follow our coverage. 

That just leaves me to thank Paul and Karen for taking the time to speak with me, and to thank you for listening.

As ever, do get in touch with us here at The PJ at any time: we are always interested in your feedback, your opinions and your suggestions for what we should be talking about next. 

And don’t forget to like and subscribe.

Until next time — I’m Corrinne Burns and thanks for listening.